Women Who Travel Podcast: An Extreme Runner On Tackling Mountain Trails In Bhutan, New Zealand, And More

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People travel far and wide to compete in marathons, and for extreme runner Nicki Rehn these feats of endurance are her favorite way to see the world. Lale chats with Rehn to find out about her career high of running the mountain peaks of Bhutan, as well as other jaw-dropping treks. Plus, Condé Nast Traveler editor Megan Spurrell stops by the studio to share her own New York Marathon story.

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Lale Arikoglu: Hello, I'm Lale Arikoglu, and welcome to Women Who Travel, a podcast for anyone who's curious about the world and excited to explore places both near and far from home.

Nicki Rehn: Some of the coolest events I've done, um, would be the Tor Des Géants in Italy and I've, uh, I've stood on the stat line of that four times and completed it three times. And that does a loop around a- the trail system in the Aosta Valley of Italy in the Alps. The Dragon's Back traverses Wales across the high mountains through Snowdo- Snowdonia National Park at the beginning and then all the way down to the South Coast. I- I mean, that was just so cool and beautiful. And I have raced in New Zealand.

Lale Arikoglu: Today's guest is Nicki Rehn, originally from Australia but she spent most of her adult life in Alberta, Canada. Reading her bio, I was amazed by the list of endurance feats and wanted to know if it was an obsession, if she enjoyed it, and what was actually driving her. She's an all around super athlete, an ultra runner who also goes in for intense orienteering competitions and mind-boggling hikes and bike races.

Nicki Rehn: I do adventure racing as well not so much these days, but I've raced the GODZone Adventure Race, which is on the south island and goes through the mountains down in the Southern Alps on New Zealand. And again, that was, you know, eight days spent out in the wilderness. I think the best thing is you see sunrises and sunsets and moonscapes and stars at night, and you see these lands in very different times of the day which is very cool.

LA: As someone who loves running, I'm fascinated by how she can actually do it for long, long distances over incredibly difficult terrain all over the globe.

NR: I have done some very, very big races in Europe, but I kind of now prefer the ones that are a little bit more obscure, definitely in the mountains, because I'm a much better power hiker than I am a runner. And [laughs] I'm actually not a fantastic runner either, which probably sounds a bit weird 'cause I ran hundreds of kilometers, but, you know, I'm not super fast but, uh, I'm fast enough. And really, what my strength was parring up, up mountains, and so, yeah, I choose mountain marathons. I choose races where you have to hike [laughs] as much as you need to run.

I don't race for the sake of being an athlete. I race mostly because it takes me to amazing places and, you know, you'll see that I actually don't race a lot locally. I tend to travel especially pre-COVID and now that we're back to traveling again. I, you know, got a new laundry list ahead of me that I'm looking at, but for sure, for me, experiencing the world in such a physical way makes it, you know... You breathe the air a lot deeper. You sort of suffer through a little bit, uh, through the terrain. For me, it makes it all come alive a lot more and I can't imagine any other way of experiencing new places and beautiful terrains.

I'm originally from Australia and I ended up in Canada when I was 21 and never really gone back. The first thing that brought me to Canada was I... when I was 21 is I cycled a bike from Vancouver to Prince Edward Island, which was 6,500 kilometers. I don't think I really even knew what I was getting myself in for or what I was starting in terms of my life ahead of me, but that was the beginning of something big and understanding that this how I wanna see the world.

LA: Do your friends think that you're absolutely nuts for wanting to do these things?

NR: No, because-

LA: [laughs].

NR: ... all of my friends do these things with me. [laughs]

LA: Oh, really?

NR: I'm very fortunate. I mean, obviously, I have a lot of colleagues and family and friends outside of running circles that do think I'm crazy, but I tend to surround myself as well with people who do this as well. And, you know, we go to races together and... Yeah, there's certainly an element of... You know, some people get it and a lot of people, yeah, think it's a bit nuts.

LA: Is it freeing? Do you think it gives you a sort of sense of freedom that other parts of life doesn't?

NR: I think it does. And I, you know, I think about this when, you know... I live in Calgary and I've lived through a few very horrific winters here and, you know, we have massive snowstorms that shut the city down and people can't get to work or get where they wanna be in. I just put on a good pair of winter shoes and all my winter clothes and I can walk 20 kilometers across the city, and that's very freeing 'cause I think, "You know what? I can... I don't need a vehicle. I can get places on my own two feet." So, yeah, there's a sense of freedom in that.

LA: Nicki came to our attention here at Women Who Travel through coverage of the first international Snowman Race that began on October 13th in Bhutan. Lasting over five days, it was a treacherous, high-altitude race, built as the world's toughest ultra marathon all to draw our attention to climate change. Nicki was one of 29 runners from 11 countries participating.

NR: The race I just came back from in the Kingdom of Bhutan was the highlight of my life and the greatest event I've ever taken part of. And I literally wept my way across the entire 200 kilometer course. But generally, for me, what happens is I, you know, I'll be on my meditative state moving forward and I just sort of almost zoom outside of my body and look in on what's happening. I think about how grateful I am and how- how lucky I am to be healthy and traveling and being in remote places. And often, I'm alone at these points and I just think, "Wow, like, this is... How did I get to live this life?" And then I just get overwhelmed and I start crying. [laughs] But the other time, you know, I think in Bhutan, that every time I climb the high pass and saw another line of the Himalayas, you know, I literally just wept the entire time. So, I- I often do get emotional probably because I'm tired and I think there's an intellectual element to it as well of just being really grateful and just, you know, amazed and in awe of how lucky I am and how beautiful places are.

LA: Tell me a little bit more about this Bhutan trek.

NR: The route is called the Snowman Trek-

LA: Okay.

NR: ... and it's considered to be the hardest hiking route in the world. It crosses multiple high mountain passes above 5,000 meters and it's very... It's- it's more of a route than a trail. It's very little trail, so to speak. [laughs] You know, you can go with a hiking company and go and hike this trek. Very few people do it. Apparently, less people have done this trek than have climbed Everest, because it's very difficult to access and it's very remote, and Bhutan is a difficult country to get in to. Yeah, they decided that... His Majesty, the king of Bhutan, decided to put on a race that would invite international athletes. He wanted runners, really, ultra runners to see his country and to see the impacts of melting glaciers they're having on the highlanders that live in these very remote areas. And so he conceived this crazy idea of, "Let's bring these runners here and we'll run them across this trek." We did 205 kilometers of the trek over five days. And normally, that section of the trail would take about 18 to hike.

LA: Well, the altitude must have been a challenge, right?

NR: The altitude was everything. The trail itself was very technical and it's not so much a trail as a- as an old, you know, [inaudible 00:07:53] route. Uh, so it was very rough and there's very little sections where you're having any easy steps, but that aside, the most difficult part was for sure the altitude. We were sleeping up above 4,500 meters and we were hiking up and around the 5,000 up... right up to 5,500 meters. So, there's only, like, 11% oxygen up there, which makes running very difficult, especially we're carrying heavy packs, more heavy than I would do on a normal ultra marathon with the sleeping bags and some other extra safety equipment. But, you know, it really wears on the body.

LA: What were those nights sleeping along the route? What did it feel like, sound like, smell like? I'm fascinated.

NR: Oh, my goodness. You know, I- I'm still trying to process it all. The part that impressed me the most was how clear the air is. Obviously, there's not a lot of oxygen, but it was really the purest air I've ever been in, I think. And as a runner, you notice things like that. It just was delicious, would be the way [laughs] I would taste the air. The nights were so dark.

There's just no, you know, civilization anywhere near where we were. We're up in these mountains that they would light up at night by stars because there are snow cap peaks, obviously, and the stars are bright enough to light them up. We had good weather and so there was quiet nights. It's very cold. It would be -10 that dropped down to most nights, so freezing cold but just beautiful. [laughs] Pristine would be the word I'd describe.

LA: Uh, you know, it's giving me chills. I want to be off in those mountains. Who were you with? Who's the crowd?

NR: Yeah, good question. [laughs] Who's the crowd?

LA: [laughs]

NR: It was not many of us out there. There was 29 athletes that began the race. There were nine Bhutanese athletes and there were 20 international athletes. And so, you know, you race five days straight, so you spread out during the day. It's, you know... In day one and two, there was a lot more of us, and so we were able to partner up and team up a little bit. And so I- I ran with a friend for the first couple days, for sure. And you feel good at different points, so you might catch someone and they're not feeling so great and then they... you know, you- you switch roles. But mostly, to be honest, 'cause there were so few of us in such vast terrain, I was alone for the majority of the race. Then altitude started taking out a lot of the athletes. I think it was 12 international athletes who were extracted from the course with altitude sickness by a helicopter.

LA: You were very intentional about selecting this Bhutan experience. Do you choose all your races and treks and competitions with that same intentionality? Is it a means of seeing a new country or is it for more educational purposes?

NR: I do use racing as a tool to travel, as an excuse to travel, that is for sure. Yeah, I am pretty intentional about my racing, mostly because I like to choose races that I know I'll enjoy. This Bhutan race chose me more than I chose it. It came across my plate and I received an invitation and it turned my world upside down, to be given one of the 20 spots to go. So, it was just a great privilege. The other races I do, you know, I'm largely looking... I actually don't wanna call it the circus of racing. I'm not a big fan of, like, very busy races. I mean, I would love to do the New York Marathon, don't get me wrong.

LA: How much does conservation and climate change acts as a sort of motivating factor for where you go? And also, the fact that your means of exploration is incredibly climate-friendly.

NR: I'm deeply passionate about wilderness and conserving and preserving wilderness areas, obviously, because, first of all, I like to recreate in them and I- I like to enjoy them myself. So, it's a little bit selfish reasons to start with, but the more time you spend out there, you- you begin to learn about these places, about the diversity, and- and about the importance of the ecosystem on more than just that particular area. And so, yeah, I'm very passionate about it and I definitely try to leave small. I do. I leave small... I leave a very small footprint. I try not to possess things that I really don't need. I don't drive very much as, you know... Of course I did get on an airplane and fly to this side of the world to go see a place, but when I get there, again, I try to- to do it with a small footprint. The cool thing is... The reason the air is so clear there is Bhutan is a carbon sink, and it's one of two or three countries in the world that actually sinks more carbon through its forest canopy than it produces as a country. And I tasted that in the air, you know? Over 70% of the country is under forest canopy. I've never been anywhere like that before. They've got no intention to cut it down [laughs], so that's great.

LA: God, what a glimpse of what the world must've smelled and tasted like before we were all filling it up.

NR: It really was. And I kept having moments of that. I was like, "I can't believe places like this still exist." But I feel so grateful that I got to see it and experience it and hopefully go back one day.

LA: Orienteering, a competitive sport that tasks you to find your way across rough country with the aid of just a map and a compass, isn't a sport that's talked about often. And it doesn't really get a lot of press, but it can be as much of a mental challenge as a physical one and extremely helpful for ultra marathon runners who are often out there on their own.

NR: I definitely think that orienteering has been the greatest gift in my life, for sure, more than running even. You know, orienteering teaches you to pay attention to everything so... and I often do it even subconsciously, where I'll move through a space and I- I don't even know that I've taken note of- of features or landmarks or a slight angulations in the terrain or... You know, I noticed very subtle features in the land. Yeah, largely, subconsciously I do that, but for sure I- I've taken a lot. And I also am constantly trying to make sense of everything in my mind, so it keeps my mind engaged when I run. I'm mapping in my head. I'm making these mental maps. Even if I'm running in my neighborhood, I do this. I think about, like, a run to the end of the cul-de-sac, because maybe there's a little cut through that, you know, a little path that would get to the next cul-de-sac. And that, for some reason, makes me excited.

LA: I think one of the less known joys about New York City is marathon day, which I considered the happiest day in the city. I think until you witness it, you don't really know the collective joy that is millions of New Yorkers cheering along marathon runners, so much so that there are gospel choirs outside of churches and parties thrown outside of restaurants and bars. And my really close friend hosts a marathon party at Mile 9 that they very originally called the Mile 9 Party. And I've gone for years and, over that time, it's got bigger and bigger, so much so that I started bringing co-workers there, including our senior editor, Megan Spurrell, who was so enamored by the marathon party and the marathon experience that she took one further step than I've gotten around to and actually decided to run the marathon this year.

After the break, I've heard bits and bobs from her before, but I've never quite heard her tell the story like this until now. If you're enjoying this episode of Women Who travel, one of the best ways you can support the podcast is by leaving us a review on Apple Podcast. We'd love to hear from you.

Megan Spurrell: If I had so much fun at one marathon in a watch party, seeing who comes past, cheering people on, people I don't know for the most, except, you know, my sister, one person, um, how incredible must it be to see everything that happens in the city on that day. So, it starts in Staten Island, goes through Brooklyn, Queens, into Manhattan, up through the Bronx, and then back down to end in Central Park. So, I think, from a travel perspective, you are never gonna see New York City in that way at all. At the time when I signed up, I could run maybe three miles without stopping, and I was not fast. So, I really was not a runner. I was just learning what it meant to, like, put on shoes and go for a run after work or before the day started. I- I tried to casually run throughout the year. Training didn't really start until July.

I would do long runs with my sister or with other friends who are running. My partner also ran, so we would get up at 6:00 AM and get in our miles before work. And my sister and I were on vacation in Canada and went out and ran a half marathon, because that was- we were at that point in our training where that's how long we had to run. And so by the time the day came, I felt like I almost had a personal de-transplant of, like, just this being this huge part of my life. And then on the actually day, I think I knew what to expect, but it- it's- it... I think it would blow anyone away.

You take the ferry to Staten Island, where you're with all the other runners. Uh, you go over to this camp, where they are giving out bagels, whole bagels, that people are shoving in their mouths to carb load before they run. And- and you're waiting for your time and everyone's sitting on the ground, stretching. And I think just the chatter you hear in that process also help me realize how big this was. I wasn't there just for the running; I was there for the experience, and it seemed really clear I would get such an experience. It's crazy. Suddenly, it's your time and they call out your start time and, you know, I was in the last wave because, of course, I anticipated my finishing time would be quite long and I was very fine with that. I just wanted to get to the end. And you're just standing with all these people and they... Once you get kind of in the crowd, they have a section where they close you off.

You know, we were standing on the Verrazzano Bride in Staten Island, which normally you can only drive over and I've driven over plenty over times. It's just very surreal at the beginning because there's no crowds when you start on the bridge, so you can really just, like... You have this moment to- to realize that, "Okay, this thing is happening." Like, "I'm at the start of a long day of something I've never experienced." You know, if you're a first time runner like I was, you start on the bridge. I mean, there's other runners and some people are kind of, like, whooping and hollering and- and getting everyone excited. But then you- you enter Brooklyn and it's just like... It is a party. There's people, there are kids with signs that are like, "We love the runners." There are people holding out cups of Gatorade. There are, you know, grandmas shaking cowbells and there are bands outside of gas stations that are, you know, with some a- advertising banner, of course.

For the remaining 26.2 miles, there was never a block where there weren't people cheering for us. And, like, whenever I would feel tired, I would run to the side, you know, you- you're... The streets are closed, so there's a wide space. I'd go to the sideway where people were and I would just hear all these strangers, like, looking in the eye and be like, "Come on, Megan." And it's incredible. Like, it's emotional to even think about, because I think it's such a cool experience. I ended up running for four hours and, I think, 43 minutes, which is actually faster than I excepted. I thought I would take a lot longer, but that is a long time to be doing one thing. But it feels like you're kind of just watching a movie of the city coming out in the biggest way it can. At- at certain points, the crowds are, like, 10 people deep. And what struck me during it was looking around, appreciating, like, the people who came out to cheer us on so much, because it- it help me forget that I was running, right? It help me forget that, like, like... I was starting to get a pain in the arch of my left foot or, like, I had a side ache for a while 'cause I drank so much water, because it was the hottest marathon day on record, I believe.

You know, everyone has a different journey in terms of what's hard about it or whether it's more physical or mental or... It's always a bit of both, but I think, you know, when- when you finish and you meet your friends and you have a burger and a beer, in my case, and a few days it's like I just remember how much fun it was. And I think what I will take from it is I learned how to run, which is a skill that I never thought I would have. And it has already benefited me in many ways, and I think hopefully will, you know, as I get older and older. And now I know I can do it, so I don't know that I need to go to Tokyo and Berlin and do everything that a lot of other people out there would like to do, but... I mean, I guess if I decide I want to, I could, and that's pretty cool.

You can enter a lottery and be chosen or you can choose to run with a charity and you have to raise... I raised $3,500. Some people's limits were $3,000, some were $3,500. And you commit to raising that money for a charity and then you run on their behalf and then you are guaranteed a spot in the race. So, I chose to run with Make the Road New York, which is a fantastic local organization based out of Queens and Brooklyn, and they support immigrants and refugees and working class people with a ton of different resources.

My name is Megan Spurrell. I'm a Senior Editor at Condé Nast Traveler and I'm part of the Women Who Travel team, and I- I'm a huge Women Who Travel podcast fan.

LA: Running has so many positive benefits. Today's guest, Nicki Rehn, has a day job as an educational consultant, and her athletic training has helped her academic process.

NR: The biggest part for me, especially because I do really long races that, you know, the- the end is almost inconceivable in many times. You know, like, the- the size of the race I can't even comprehend and it seems impossible when you even try to imagine how you can get it done. But if you just move forward, you get there, and I- I've learnt that over the years. And so, yeah, I totally apply that to [laughs] my life. You know, I- I finished a PhD about five years ago and that seemed to take forever, and... Well, it did. It took me six years. But I applied the exact same ultra marathon philosophy to my PhD. I was like, "Just write a sentence on a page. It's a step forward." And I said to myself, "At one point I'll keep moving forward, and then at point it will end." And it did. That's exactly what happened then. You know, there's difficult things that seem to just persist in your life and I'm like, "Just move forward and, at one time in the future, it will end." [laughs] So, yeah, I totally apply that.

LA: So, do you accept sponsorships?

NR: I sort of don't really wanna be sponsored because I don't like the idea of, uh, [laughs] promoting brands that I don't, you know... I'm always, it's sort of, like, runs against my culture of not- not buying things. So, if I have had sponsorships in the past, like, just product sponsors and I get product deals, but no- no actually sponsors. No.

LA: So, I was really taken with Nicki's blog and asked her to share an excerpt. It's a peek into the details of what she goes through on reentry and the so-called normality after one of her great test of endurance.

NR: So, shall I just read it now then? To be honest, aside from the delicious food and wine, I had to work really hard to like Florence. It seems to be everyone's favorite city and supposedly the birthplace of academia, to which I owe my career. But I fell out of place. I wandered around for an entire day getting twisted and turned in the maze of streets, imagining myself as a scarf and leather jacket wearing girl on a Vespa. Sleek, sophisticated, and fashionably coordinated just like everyone else. But then I remembered that my idea of a purse is the inside zipper of my race vest where I store my cash and credit card in a Ziploc bag. My legs are meaty and powerful and much better suite to climbing big mountains than wearing high heels under a miniskirt. And I smelled funny, because I've been washing my t-shirt and undies on a hostile sink with cheap soap for the last three weeks.

I conceded that Florence was lovely, but after my last couple of weeks in the wilderness, it was hard to be around so many tour-bus-taking, selfie-stick-wielding people. I was also desperately missing the GR 20 trail and my bad ass like-minded trekking peeps. Nevertheless, I did what I always do in big, touristy cities. I made my mission to find sanctuary, a café in an urban garden tucked away down an inconspicuous lane, where I went for morning coffee but ended up with Prosecco; a church that no one was interested in because it was only 600 years old; and a farm-to-table restaurant that might have been the only place to make vegan food in all of Italy. I found my own way to be a tourist, but after just 24 hours, it was time to take those sporty legs back to where they belong: the mountains.

LA: Oh, that was fantastic. The thing that was so interesting to me was how you sort of captured what it felt like to have done one of these experiences and then have to kind of return to civilization and become a regular tourist. Is it really jarring?

NR: My tolerance for the chaos of, uh, of being back in civilization is- [laughs] is not very long. And so I- I pretty quickly wanna start thinking about my next, you know, trip or my next race or my next adventure.

LA: You seem very skilled at also being able to see the world on a shoestring and do things pretty cheaply when you want to or need to. What are some of your sort of tricks or insights for being a bit of a super traveler on a budget?

NR: Oh, that's a great question. I do. I take great pride in the fact that I- I travel cheaply. I did Iceland very cheaply and I think that I could- I should write a guide on that [laughs], how to travel Iceland cheaply. To be honest, one of the big things is I have a- a superpower, which is I can sleep anywhere. So, sleep is important and you need to be out. In order to enjoy your travel, you have to be well rested. And so a lot of people can feel uncomfortable in many places where they sleep outside of their own home. For me, I can sleep anywhere. I can sleep in a car. You know, when I was in Iceland, I rented a very small Europcar. I spent all my money on a car and I slept in the front seat of it for 12 days, so [laughs]... Like, now, most people wouldn't do that and that's because I can sleep. I sleep eight hours of solid, comfortable sleep even though I'm in a front seat of a car. So, that's a huge difference.

I can go a long time without showering. You know, I'm very happy just to get some wet clothes and, yeah, I don't- I don't travel with much gear. I tend to just go with the travel carry-on bags and wash my undies in the sink, as I said, yeah, and- and I eat simple. For me, what I take joy in in the traveling is- is just soaking up a place. So, if I... You know, most places I go, I love to just go sit in the city square or wherever I am and just watch people go by, and just soak up a place. I'd go sit in a coffee shop and, you know, chat to the locals. And, to me, that's where I get all the joy of traveling, and- and that just doesn't cost much. Meeting people and taking cheap transit and sleeping in the front seat of your car makes travel very cheap.

LA: Have you always been someone who is content with sleeping in the front seat of their car and not really showering for 12 days or is that a quality that you have developed as you have traveled more and more?

NR: No, I blame my parents for that. My childhood was... I grew up in- in rural Australia. Uh, my parents used to take us camping and they... Yeah. No, I spent my- most of my childhood sleeping on the ground, uh, rather than... and- and showering in the creek or not showering at all. And, uh, coming home every, you know, week or, you know, at the end of the week or at the end of the two weeks and- and finally getting to hop in the bath and thinking that was completely normal. So, I just didn't grow out of that. I think a lot of people grow out of it, but I just didn't. So, I don't know why but I- I- I'm grateful that... Yeah. It doesn't take much for me to be happy.

[inaudible 00:29:54] have, uh, have the experience of wilderness wherever they're traveling. I mean, it's most places. It's pretty easy, especially if in Europe. You can just so easily get on a train and go up into the Alps and find the trails. Maybe do a little short one-hour hike and come back. And you feel so proud of yourself when you think, "Wow..." You never know. Before you know it, you'll be crossing a country on- on an ultra marathon. [laughs]

LA: Next week, I'm honored to talk to Gretchen Rubin, author of many successful books like The Happiness Project, Outer Order, Inner Calm, and host of the hugely successful podcast, Happiness with Gretchen Rubin. She'll share her insights and revelations about how to cope in trips and vacations when you're not, by nature, traveling inclined. It will be fascinating to hear her sage and upbeat advice. Thank you for listening. I'm Lale Arikoglu and you can find me, as always, on Instagram at @lalehannah. And follow with Women Who Travel on Instagram at @womenwhotravel. You can also join the conversation in our Facebook Group. Allison Leyton-Brown is our composer, Jennifer Nulsen is our engineer, Jude Kampfner from Corporation For Independent Media is our producer. 

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