Women Who Travel Podcast: Telling The Stories Of Indigenous Australia Through Dance

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In this week's episode, we travel to Australia to talk to dancer, choreographer, and storyteller Frances Rings, a descendant of the Wirangu and Mirning Tribes from the country's southern west coast, and the artistic director of Bangarra Dance Theater, Australia's leading Indigenous performing arts company. She explains the power of dance as a tool for healing—and shares stories of Indigenous Australia.

Out of respect for Indigenous Australian bereavement practices, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander listeners are advised that this podcast contains the name of someone who has died.

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Speaker 1: Out of respect for Indigenous Australian bereavement practices, Aboriginal and Touristry Islander listeners are advised that this podcast contains the name of someone who has died. The podcast includes music from today's guest, Frances Rings, from her work Unaipon. It's “West Wind”, by David Page, and features the First Nation's language Ngarrindjeri from South Australia.

Lale Arikoglu: Hello, I'm Lale Arikoglu. And this is Women Who Travel. And if you're at all curious about the world, then this show's for you. In today's episode, we travel to Australia to talk to dancer, choreographer, and storyteller Frances Rings.

Frances Rings: The great thing about Sydney is that whether you go, well, you can't go east because that's ocean, but whether you go north, south or west, it's just completely surrounded by national park.

LA: As our microphones were getting adjusted in the warm up to our interview, I couldn't help but start chatting to Frances about my own backpacking trip around the country when I was 19. And the distinct feeling that I had barely scratched the surface of this rich and complicated country, even after I'd spent two months traveling around it.

FR: And really beautiful diverse incredible country, rich with history and culture and stories that are still these living, breathing knowledge systems that surround us. So, yeah. I mean, you don't have to travel very far to be immersed in this incredible cultural experience. But it also means that where we have fires, you know [laughs]. All the smoke comes and settles in the basin and, yeah, it can get in trouble very quickly.

LA: My first impressions of Australia was that of someone who really hadn't traveled much at that point. Like I said, I was 19 years old and I was backpacking on a shoestring of a budget. I couldn't help but think from the moment that I'd set foot in Western Australia, that I was going to be exploring somewhere vast and wild and intimidating. And as I got to see it in all its many facets, that really stayed with me.

Coming from England, I was struck by its fullness. When I say fullness I mean by its noise from its wildlife, from the heat, from the insects and the dangerous animals that I was supposed to be looking out for. It felt like the opposite of everything that I'd known until that point.

You are a descendant of the Varangu and Mirning Tribes from the west coast of South Australia, you are also the artistic director of Bangarra Dance Theatre, which is Australia's leading Indigenous performing arts company. Basic question: How did dance enter your life?

FR: You know what? I can't remember a time when I didn't have dance as a presence in my life. It's like been a companion since I can remember and it's not that my dad or my, my parents sent me to dance lessons at a young age or from when I could walk, that was [laughs] not the case. We were a very poor family, and a very large family. Not, not terribly large, actually, there was five of us, but I had always loved being in the backyard, creating this imaginary world; creating theatrical pieces. I didn't know at the time, but they were like, you know, theatrical pieces or that I was choreographing, or that it was an art form that you could have a career from.

It's been a, a tool for healing, and I think that that's what art allows us to do, is kind of really refine and hone in to the DNA that makes you the individual and the uniqueness that you are. It's a beautiful gift and I like to think that the ancestors gave me this gift so I could [laughs], you know, be able to do what I do. And not only have a career, but be able to tell the stories of Indigenous Australia.

LA: You mentioned it being a tool for growth, but you also mentioned it as a tool for healing. Talk a little bit about what you mean by that.

FR: I think being an Indigenous person in a predominantly white world, it's there. Growing up in a little country towns, going to schools in institutions, that don't reflect anything that looks like you; that don't make you feel important; that don't make you feel like you have something that is worthwhile, and something that you can give an that you're a part of this community, and you're a part of society, and you're valued.

Creates a lot of, a lot of pain in young people and a lot of confusion. So that's a big thing to navigate. I mean, as a young person, you're already kind of consumed with, you know, trying to fit in and trying to be, be a part of something and it's being, you know, 2% of the population, you know, a minority; and then a minority again living in a country town; and a minority of being an Indigenous person; and a minority of being a woman at that, a young girl; and a minority of, you know, living in poverty. I think they're big things to navigate. So there was lots of healing to do. For me to step up and go, "You know what? I wanna have a future. I wanna have a career." The, all the messages that I'm being told, tell me that I'm not going to do that, but what I need to do is listen to something else and focus on that.

And I think that's where dance was an important tool, was because that it was something that people would say, "Oh, wow, you know, you, you, that's a gift," or, and I wasn't formally trained or anything. I just kind of make silly shapes and kind of... But I was really committed to it [laughs], which is really funny.

LA: It takes a lot of confidence, right?

FR: But I was-

LA: To be able to [laughs]-

FR: [laughs] I know. And I had very patient siblings who allowed me to dress them up in all sorts of remnants that were floating around the household, rags and towels and old curtains and whatever else I could get ahold of to create my productions [laughs].

LA: Frances had never attended a dance class until the year before high school graduation, when dance was offered as an elective. And as part of that class, they were given the chance to go on an excursion. Her teacher announced:

FR: We're gonna catch a bus to Sydney and we're gonna go to the theater and see a work called Cats and this was, of course, Andrew Lloyd Webber's [laughs] Cats. And I was like, I've no idea what you're talking about but I'm in [laughs]. I'm all in.

I mean, from the moment the house lights go out and the curtain goes up and you hear, da, da, da, da. It's [laughs] the Australian of, of Jellicle Cats, and then you see, like, this is the first time I'd ever been in a theater, or I'd seen like, you know, bodies move that way, the shapes that they could make and, you know, they could sing, they could dance, they could pounce, they could act, they could be animals, they could be humans. I was completely transfixed. And that really was a, a reckoning for me, that this was gonna be my career.

LA: That trip, and just that exposure sounds like it was a pretty, kind of, life changing moment in a way, you know, and it kind of made a lot of things, perhaps fit, you know, it kind of just opened up your world, so to speak. And now you, now you are leading-

FR: Absolutely.

LA: ... a touring performance art dance company, where you have the opportunity to share Indigenous culture and communities to audiences all around Australia and the world. How has, it's gonna be a two pronged question, but how has touring Australia changed you understanding of the country or, or shown it to you in a new way or has it just, sort of, reaffirmed your, what you knew about it or bonds with it? What's it been like to take these shows around the country?

FR: A lot of our audience are white Australians. It's very easy to live in a country like Australia and live very comfortably and not step outside of your bubble, and not have to see what is happening in communities; not have to witness the reality of the hardships of Indigenous people that are really disenfranchised and that are trying to maintain their culture and see that pass down through the next generations, and to see that survive and live and that language is maintained and that country is cared for, and that cultural knowledge and lore is preserved and maintained.

So, our platform is to make space for those stories. Is to bring the stories that are happening in remote and regional Australia, in those Indigenous spaces, and bring them to the stage. Important stories about our lives, our contemporary lives, about our history, about the people that have made incredible contributions to this country and where we are today, and whose stories are still not out there in the public domain.

So, when we travel to regional and remote areas, if I'm doing a work, it's really driven a lot by the community. And we work closely with the community so that they're driving how we tell our stories. We're abiding by their cultural protocols and telling the stories in the right way and in the way that they want these stories to be told. And they are the most incredible experiences because you become a child and your eyes are open and you are listening and hearing and feeling and they are taking you on this journey. This journey is one that, you know, these things don't happen overnight. It can take us two years to work with a community, to build trust and for them to give permission for us to do the work and to go there and to do research and development for that work.

There's over 200 languages that are spoken here. We have hundreds of clans. There are different dialects. There are different ways of how people express their identity. And there are communities that are matriarchal societies, there are patriarchal societies. There's women's business, men's business. There's so much diversity of Indigenous cultures in this country. Not every story's the same.

LA: Coming up after the break, one of Frances' favorite stories from an elder that became a successful dance piece.

You know, you mentioned that sometimes it can be a two year process to-

FR: Yeah.

LA: ... build up those relationships and to be granted those stories and the permission to tell those stories. How do you build up that trust? Is there a way to define it?

FR: It's not really a way to define it. Trust is built up through building relationships. We like to call it the hundred cups of teas [laughs], 'cause you know, elders love drinking tea, and you sit down at a table or around a fire, and you listen to their stories, and you make space and time for them. And you value those stories. And those stories are important because they hold onto history. Our history is oral. Our history wasn't written in books. It was told through ceremony and through song and dance and through storytelling.

Was painted on walls. It's in the foundation of our lore. But that's what's really important to, that elders have that opportunity to share. Their memories are so sharp, you know, they are living embodiments of the government policies that have shaped this country and that have impacted on Indigenous people, and where we are today. We're the only Indigenous people in the world who didn't have a treaty with its colonizers. And that really has impacted on us because we're not represented in the constitution, in the legal system, you know? And that's the current conversation that's happening in Australia, is about a voice to Parliament.

Speaker 4: Aboriginal land. All my voice. [inaudible 00:14:50]. Aboriginal land. Always one.

FR: And it's about, you know, how we grow as a nation. And how we truth tell in order to heal as a nation from the shadow of the past and we move forward. And that's all Indigenous people want is to move forward. But in order to move forward, we need to tell those stories so that everyone understands what this country was founded on.

LA: Going back for a second to the hundred cups of tea, as I do.

FR: [laughs] It sounds like a-

LA: It is like some sort of charming children's book [laughs].

FR: [laughs].

LA: I mean, clearly there's such a wealth of stories and many of which make their way to the stage, but could you give me an example of one story that you often go back to or that is one you like to tell?

FR: Oh dear. That is a hard one. I did this work, I think it was my second work, with Bangarra, and this work was... How it was kind of seeded was, I was dancing with Bangarra. We were at the Monaco Dance Forum in Monaco, and my sister used to dance in Bangarra as well and we shared a room and, you know, we'd do the performance and come home, and we were sitting up talking one night and she was talking about this man who they called Australia's Leonardo da Vinci, and I was like, "Who are you talking about?" And she said, "Have you not heard of him?" And I said, "No." And, you know, I grew up in South Australia. He's a South Australian man, and his name is David Unaipon, and this man was renown enough to be featured on our currency. He's on our 50 dollar note. And I was really intrigued and angry and I had all these feelings because I was like, so wait there, they compared him, at the time, to Australia's Leonardo da Vinci, yet I went through my whole education and nobody taught us about that.

That this man who wasn't even a citizen at the time, but he overcame such adversity to make incredible transformations to the way we live our lives, and to the wealth of this country through his inventions, through his scientific knowledge, through his understanding of his own culture and that of other cultures that, you know, he was a man of the cloth. His father was the first Indigenous Aboriginal lay preacher. Their community was the first one to have the Bible converted into traditional language. The more I researched, the more I found out this fascinating history about this man. And I was just in awe, and like, oh my God, we've gotta do a work about him. I didn't know what the work was gonna be, but, you know, I was like, okay, uh, I've got an idea for a work.

I managed to find his family. They lived very close to the community where he's from. He's a Ngarrindjeri man. He lived in a community, it was called Raukkan. And Raukkan is a community that's near the Coorong at the base of where the Murray River flows into these massive lakes and into the ocean. Big, rich, incredible country in South Australia. So I found his family and I got in touch with them and they said, "Yeah, come and visit." And I met is great grandniece. And she was just lived in this little suburban house in this little country town, and she was so sweet. And I sat down and had cups of tea with her. And she shared stories.

He was an author as well. He wrote a book. And even that was stolen from him, the manuscript, and released in a white author's name, and then it was repatriated, I think in the 90s. But those incredible hardships. And I like to think, wow. What would he think of us telling his stories today and sharing that with audiences and that we respect all of that work that he did and that's not forgotten.

LA: I mean, what a harsh irony to have not seen the royalties of his own inventions and works, and yet is still placed on currency.

FR: I know, right? Yep, absolutely.

LA: After the break, how dance influences born out of the American Civil Rights Movement made their way over to Australia.

You've collaborated with Indigenous dance troupes from other countries too. I think, from Canada for example. What's that experience been like to be working with those troops from other parts of the world?

FR: Oh, incredible. It's really incredible. And again, empowering because you have other Indigenous peoples that have been through the experience of colonization and have this art form that they use to express the nuances of what that experience is in a language that is undefined, that holds this cultural grounding but is also of this contemporary aesthetic, or you're able to have these conversations with them and had this exchange of knowledge and information and, you know, support and might just go back and give a little bit of a history because we had in the early 1970s a Black American dancer.

When Carol Johnson was touring in Australia, and I like to think that, that the arts in America were being inspired and bolstered as they arrived out of the Civil Rights era, and that there were all these ways of expressing Blackness and expressing identity, and having the political body on stage saying "We tell our stories our own way in our own voice and with our own language." And she came out here and could see no Black dance. She went to Red Fern, which is predominantly, you know, Indigenous suburb in the center of Sydney, and talking to mob there and saying, "Well, do you have a dance company? Do you have any training? Is there any kind of, you know, courses that Indigenous students can go to to learn dance and to train?" And there was nothing. There was a Black theater, which was actors, Black actors who were probably the closest thing to that and that was it.

So, she lobbied the Australia Counsel, our chief arts funding body in Australia and got funding to put on a course.

LA: You are working on a show for the Sydney Opera House right now, correct?

FR: Yeah. We will be very soon. This is a whole Indigenous led creative team and, you know, it's also about... The set is obviously emerging composers, Indigenous composers that are coming through; Indigenous costume designers and set designers as well. So it's really important that, you know the experience be about the whole creative industries and not just about dance and choreography and the making of the stories, but how we tell those stories. And about how we tell them into the future and giving opportunity for those emerging young artists to come to Bangarra and have their vision realized.

LA: You know, you're at kind of at the beginning of this directorship, hopefully with many, many, many performance ahead of you. And, you know, when I mentioned the Sydney Opera House, I was thinking, you know, partly because it's such a major tourist destination where you have people from all over the world going to that Opera House. Do you think that sort of giving visitors to the country an opportunity to have these stories told from the peoples whose stories they are is going to open visitors' eyes to Indigenous culture and history in a new way and a more positive way that perhaps tourism has offered in the past?

FR: I think it gives a glimpse. When you go to an iconic building like the Sydney Opera House. And when you sit down on that site, you're not just sitting in this incredible architecture, but you're sitting on a [midden 00:25:12], you're sitting on Aboriginal land that is unseeded and those living systems of knowledge and history, our past and the present sit in the same space.

For us, art is medicine. So there's always a moment to give our audiences that duty of care and that seed of hope, and to walk out of there not feeling that, oh, God, uh, white people are so bad, you know? But feeling that they have had the privilege of glimpsing into our world. They should walk out of there with this incredible sense of pride that our Indigenous people have survived such incredible challenges, yet still have adapted to live and to carry culture and to have dignity. And I think that's, you know, that's something that we want Australians to be proud. We want tourists to be proud of this culture and to celebrate its survival. But also we need to grow as a nation. And we need to stop blaming and start actioning. And we'll keep it provocative and making people uncomfortable, yet at the same time, we'll keep holding a hand out to them and say, "We can do this. Let's find the solutions."

LA: If listeners want to follow your work and the work of Bangarra and stay up-to-date, perhaps if they're in Australia or visiting Australia, where can they find you and Bangarra?

FR: Well, you can go to www.Bangarra.com.au just look us up. We're all over the place. We're all over socials and we're all over YouTube if you wanna get a little glimpse into some of our productions. I'm biased, but-

LA [laughs].

FR: ... I think that they're pretty bloody special.

LA: The Sydney Opera House is such an iconic building. I mean, it's hard to picture a postcard from Australia without it. But as with so many storied cultural sites, you have to also ask, who has access to them? Who can actually afford a ticket? How exclusive is that place? Can people who live there actually visit it? It's important to Bangarra Dance that they also tour the amazing breadth of Australia, and perform in many different venues and introduce their work to new audiences.

I'm off traveling for a bit. So next week, we're revisiting an episode of Women Who Travel from last year when I chatted with authors Rebecca Mead and Elif Batuman about two cities close to their hearts London and Istanbul, both of which, as many listeners know, I'm very attached to.

It's worth noting that this episode was recorded months before the recent earthquake that struck Turkey and Syria. For information on how to support communities affected by the disaster, CNTraveler.com has rounded up resources on how to help. Thanks for listening.

I'm Lale Arikoglu and you can find me, as always, on Instagram @lalehannah and follow along with Women Who Travel on Instagram @womenwhotravel. You can also join the conversation in our Facebook group. Allison Leyton-Brown is our composer. Jennifer Nulsen is our engineer. Jude Kampfner from Corporation for Independent Media is our producer.

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